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Title: Multi-Layered Cover-Up in “Finicum Shooting” & Subsequent Investigation
Published: 2016-03-09
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfdFHDojBA
Title: Multi-Layered Cover-Up in “Finicum Shooting” & Subsequent Investigation
Published: 2016-03-09
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfdFHDojBA
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into processing distortion the podcast series here at boiling frog post dot com I'm your host Peter B. Collins today we do an additional follow up broadcast on the events in Oregon that started on January second with the the occupation of the ballot your wildlife refuge and in particular we're going to focus on the events of January twenty six when a roadblock was established by the FBI2/167
and the Oregon state police and went live or if income drove in to that road block there was an incident where he was shot and killed joining me today is my co host is the publisher and founder of boiling frog post Sibel Edmonds Sibel good to have you with us okay pediatric it really you and Pat and returning is our guest Todd McFarlane as we've described3/167
him before he is a rancher he's an activist he is an attorney and %HESITATION he has been representing the family of Robert lavoy Finnigan who as I mentioned was shot and killed in that law enforcement showdown on January twenty sixth and before we get into the report that was released by the law enforcement agencies in Oregon here on Tuesday March eighth Todd could you tell us4/167
what your current the status is in terms of representing the survivors of Robert lavoy fennica yeah Peter because I had to do that and thanks for the opportunity of that status changed last week %HESITATION so my role from the beginning among other things and especially after the shooting %HESITATION again you've explained I'm I'm really a rancher first in an attorney %HESITATION second or third or somewhere5/167
down the line and so although I was willing to do what I could to help them out I realized when they realize that this is a high enough profile case and that there is enough at stake that one of my roles all the way along has been to try to help them find other legal counsel that really specializes in this sort of thing and has the6/167
resources and everything necessary to handle this kind of a case and the other related cases with respect the protection of their interests the ranching interests those sorts of things and so last week actually %HESITATION there was kinda handing off of the baton to others and so I my status is changed in that regard and I no longer represent them actively they have other people are doing7/167
that and so in a lot of wasted it feels kind of liberating because now %HESITATION I'm not going to go back and talk about any of the other things that I did while I was representing them and helping them out but at this point in going forward I I feel like it gives me the opportunity to talk about the kind of things that we're going to8/167
talk about today not as their attorney not as their family attorney but basically as part MacFarland in whatever capacity and whatever happens I am wearing right now okay and I'll just recap for our listeners that you made an independent visit %HESITATION to the wildlife refuge side pick that as around January eighth or ninth and you shared your observations of that phase of the events of with9/167
me in our first podcast and %HESITATION you also in a second conversation talked at some length about the history of rancher conflicts with the federal government over grazing rights and related issues and of that's an area where I you know give you credit for having significant expertise so Todd let me just ask you a open ended what was your reaction when you watched the news conference10/167
that %HESITATION was held before a hand picked group of reporters it was not an open press call in fact the time and location were kept secret and only those who were approved of by the law enforcement officials were invited to participate but when you saw the presentation with the %HESITATION additional video footage including the of footage that was sent up from the camera a that was11/167
a operated by %HESITATION Shauna Cox inside the Finnigan vehicle ought we certainly have a much more complete picture of the sequence of events on January twenty six no question so in terms of my reaction but there were a lot of things there that came out that I wasn't expecting certainly including %HESITATION that additional video when I say I wasn't expecting that despite the fact that my12/167
status changed last week I did receive an email from attorney Dan Norris actually this morning and not too long before that press conference was going to occur they basically because he didn't know that my status it changed was alerting me to the fact that they were going to be using that video in the press conference and that he considered there to be some %HESITATION graphic stuff13/167
in it and he just wanted to make sure that I could pass that along to the Senate come so that they would be aware of that and that that would not catch them completely by surprise which I did and so so I again that was a surprise to me %HESITATION until I receive that which was kind of a heads up other than that they're the big14/167
surprise for me was kind of some of the things that came out with respect to the FBI but my overall reaction basically was this %HESITATION to a large extent it was about what I expected that have happened I didn't actually expect that they would try to limit the press corps and the questions and the hard questions and all of those sorts of things although it looks15/167
to me like that was all carefully choreographed did orchestrated so that there wouldn't be people they're asking the really tough questions but basically what I expected and this is what I felt like happened and this is what I thought happens in most situations like this I I feel like the presumption is always in favor of finding I justified shooting so when they investigate basically what they're16/167
looking for it anything they can find to find but to make a finding of justification bad when they explain that they've gone through all of the the video in the frames frame by frame and very carefully I don't doubt that I think we probably did that and they always do that to find justification if there's anything that they can find that will give them reason to17/167
add in the process they ignore postured bunch of other things and one of things that I think they always ignore shouldn't say always I don't wanna make definitive statements like that but that they often ignore is all the other things that law enforcement chooses to do in situations like this to provoke and escalate the responses that occur and I I definitely feel like that is part18/167
of what happened here I feel like the entire way the roadblock was set up and the way they pursued it up are quite bill like they have that set up and can actually my own view is that the result was what they set it up to be and what they were actually in my opinion hoping for all right and let me ask you a direct question19/167
have you viewed the %HESITATION original unedited Shauna Cox video and do you have any indication that they pulled punches are selectively edited the video to create certain perceptions no I I definitely have and I don't think anybody that bought them has access to that video because that videos I understand was shot on her phone which was seized as evidence she doesn't have it no one else20/167
that I know of has access to that didn't know I haven't viewed that all right instability and so for the benefit of our listeners you live in bend Oregon and you have been monitoring this situation very carefully since it began on January second what was your reaction to the announced law enforcement findings today well Peter I guess I have been following this case %HESITATION closely and21/167
and I was not surprised with the outcome of that press conference or how it was conducted and how the media %HESITATION group that was not specifically instead like cherry picking and allow their people not asking hard questions that's why they were except that it was our SBP so then you summit the RSVP did go through you know those people who want to go there had an22/167
attempt and they pick the ones that they want to pick and %HESITATION many people who request it did not get any response may be they they were they were told that the room was well I'm not sure what they were cited it just the fact that they didn't get any response but let's start from the beginning because there are at least two macro %HESITATION question %HESITATION23/167
that that nobody is referring to I know a lot of people they get lost in the details you know I'm going to get into that the truck for example the autopsy report etcetera but there but there are some really significant mackerel metroplex ship that nobody in the media have tackled to the states nobody in the media has ever question and that's basically stretch into this that24/167
differ this up press conference as well because nobody in the room ask one of the most important so let's start from the beginning all the officials who participated in this news conference started out fighting the main reason behind this ambush population they all unanimously stated that this operation was for the purpose of ending T. on lawful occupation of the federal building it now for and that25/167
by doing so they wanted to return the building back to the federal employees okay well if that was the purpose why not have an operation on the premises where god unlawful occupation was in effect that's right before which law enforcement was able to meet with these individuals the occupiers communicate with them on that on the premises four weeks the occupants were able to really leave and26/167
come back to you occupied area and travel in it now yes the fed this stage the law enforcement conducted this operation when the main leaders had left the occupied area well on the road to a different county for a meeting meaning they no longer had the status of occupiers at that point they were not occupying anything they were in a car it was not a soul27/167
as far and they were lawfully arms they had their permits for their weapons they were accompanied by women I'm very work peacefully under way to a meeting with a law enforcement officer issued arrest in a different county in a grand now why conduct and execute this operation at this specific power at this specific location while the targets were not in the process of unlawfully occupying anything28/167
in fact not in the process of doing anything all lawful what why conducted first operations there first operation outside the occupied area and it keeps people who at the time we're not even engaged in any unlawful act Britain's prince as they stated during this press conference was to take the building back if the leaders away why not go to the occupied building which warrants conduct an29/167
operation and apprehend those who were actually engaged in the act of suppose it's unlawful occupant I mean you would think this is one of the first question every media outlet should be posing in asking right but they haven't and because of that the public opinions have been swayed because they are right now thinking and acknowledging facts that are not backed and and you're looking at massive30/167
cover up but this is one of the most important for mission both on their behalf to law enforcement those responsible but also the U. S. media what's been covering this that I see and I would like to have your take on this and also top let me ask Todd a what was the status of Ammon Bundy and the individuals who were in these two vehicles on31/167
that day had they been charged with a crime or any crime whatsoever not to my knowledge my not to my knowledge they hadn't been charged there may be things that I don't know %HESITATION I don't think that they had been charged in fact I think there's quite a bit of confusion about whether or not there was anything pending and if in fact there had any been32/167
any arrest warrants issued at that point and time I don't want to speak definitively about that because I don't know the answer but I've heard questions to that effect I question it myself all the news all the news accounts that I've seen Todd show that they were charged after they whacked apprehended and SOI Sosa bell raises a valid point about the over arching frame %HESITATION of33/167
of this event now I can hear FBI and law enforcement people and I'm I'm inserting this on a speculative basis on to be clear but I can hear them saying oh will they were suspects in an obvious situation and %HESITATION I still think that it's a stretch I can't find a legal basis %HESITATION S. Sibel points out of for this %HESITATION dangerous road block %HESITATION and34/167
the confrontational approach that they took %HESITATION and %HESITATION Sibel makes a good point that they enunciated at the beginning of this news conference what their objective was on that day so %HESITATION I I think it's a very interesting point the way that you know I believe if they frame these things is that it's just obvious to everyone that they were illegal illegally occupying this federal act35/167
of property and therefore the government has the right to take action against them but I think that's a fallacy and it's not you know properly %HESITATION laid out the the other factor is I think that the FBI was desperate to avoid a confrontation like Waco or ruby ridge and they probably felt it was easier to %HESITATION grab these people offside then attempts to take a control36/167
of the facility that they were occupied well let's let's kind of think through this I mean as far as I'm concerned %HESITATION and again I'm not an expert and Peter you've talked about how I shouldn't be all that concerned about the language that I use in some of these interviews but as far as I'm concerned they took a completely ass backwards approach here it I mean37/167
first of all they knew what they were doing I mean there's no question in my mind that the FBI in Oregon state police knew exactly where they're going exactly the reason why they were going there and I think it goes back to senator widens statement this is a virus that we've got to stop from spreading I think that we have to understand that that was basically38/167
the position that those elected leaders and that includes governor Kate brown and that includes the senators they did not want them to go sit down with sheriff Palmer they wanted to stop them from doing that and I think that I have a lot to do with the timing all the sudden they're scrambling around they're trying to do everything that their power to stop that from happening39/167
even though that they're trying to explain that that's not what's going on from my perspective if they wanted to set up an operation like this and do it in some kind of reasonably justified way then why not let them go sit down what share of Palmer and then when they come back have a little box set up but doesn't allow them to reenter the refuge so40/167
they do their thing they come back they find out they're not able to reenter and so one of they do at that point I mean they can't re after they had roadblocks like that for weeks afterwards I'm not even sure that they would have had to apprehend them or do anything if they got their charges if they got their paperwork in order they would be able41/167
to do that and then frankly they could just essentially sat on the whole refuge situation and just let it play out with whatever occupants were remaining there somewhat like they did anyway tell them if you wanna leave go ahead if you want to stay we can talk about that but basically the federal government was in a position that they could have waited everyone out but I42/167
don't see that that would have heard anything so I think we have a whole bunch of the old theory or motives that they're trying to cover with their explanations then maybe you and Todd what you just described is an interesting scenario that you know by all accounts would have been available to the FBI and the Oregon state police %HESITATION if they had chosen a a de43/167
escalation path that's what I tried to explain but you want to make it sound like they've done everything they can to avoid violence and to avoid this outcome but what I see over and over again unfortunately it's law enforcement doesn't really seem to understand what it means to de escalate instead of escalate from my perspective it looks like that's what they were trying to do and44/167
I've received a lot of import about the way they set up the road block all the personnel that were there basically the conclusions from a lot of people is they were basically setting up what is often referred to as the kill box they intended if at all possible to do something like this they they really it looks like this is what they wanted to have happen45/167
and when you talk about look voice in a come later in this discussion it sounds like but my view is that he is probably the person that they were targeting though most to have this outcome happen to that will be my view will come that back to that later alright so bill did you wanna make another point yeah my second add up to three point macro46/167
point that I was talking about has to do with it %HESITATION dish justification for Phoenix and should the official and higher press conference fashion trying to show justification or low voiced in a country yes they did not even touch upon the unjustified shooting that began or low voice then again even exited the car okay the FBI HRT that's the hostage rescue they began shooting at the47/167
car with real guns and let's not the later stuff before my voice they can cut out of the car for there were any of those speculation as to whether in income was reaching for his gun or not they opened fire FBI HRT opened fire who are getting the car occupied by a woman and a girl eighteen year old barely eighteen and two men were not presenting48/167
any trust anyone I mean that's ironic for their title either hostage rescue team right so considering that women maybe they consider dumping hostage this they were on the premises at Truckee so what do you start shooting at the hostages they fired several shots that hit the car although some protection we legal what was the justification for that there was none well us adults something ridiculous that49/167
they could have used the truck that car the SUV as the weapon as a dangerous lethal weapon but that doesn't really watch not the feudal media puppet in that room wickedest very simple and concrete not that the shooting did not begin with then again outside the truck need his hands up and later lowering his hands towards an alleged weapons delete all shooting began before that why50/167
were they shooting why did started shooting what was the intention what possibly could be the justification they were shooting at the car did real weapons okay and if what if the greatest force in attempts to stop the car in order to protect the women on the backseat get out of the court and say should we just shoot me okay this is you're looking at an honorable51/167
person even issue shoot me not the way the media represents they shoot me shoot me I'm I'm I wouldn't commit suicide by cop just should be because I like to be shot what just shoot me any shoe Josh me leave them alone that's why he got out of the car and knowing that he was a target they go ahead you wanna shoot shoot me well Sibel52/167
couple things about this first of all today was the first time that I saw the footage that was shot from a helicopter a fixed wing plane over a highway three ninety five that showed the initial contact with the Finnigan vehicle and it does change my perspective because a it was only what a mile and a half down the road %HESITATION that he ran into the road53/167
block but at the initial stop %HESITATION he %HESITATION defied the orders from the state police to stop and to get out of his vehicle and so at that point I he did become a fugitive and was %HESITATION you know running from a police stop and as he approached the roadblock they said it was seventy miles an hour and then as he came around the bend he54/167
appeared to slow down to about fifty but because they have blocked the road they created the situation that put the officers in danger that said because he had left the %HESITATION initial attempt to stop him and was defying authority was being chased by at least one police van %HESITATION they make a fairly credible case that to the officers fired due to prevent being killed by the55/167
vehicle and he did swerve to the left to avoid colliding with the three %HESITATION law enforcement of vehicles that were there %HESITATION but I I do think that the claim of just a five billet he of the shots are fired at the vehicle as it approached the roadblock is is something that %HESITATION that they can probably sustain that that would be my my view or not56/167
that play the devil's advocate I'm going to let pot answered this question but if you use intention was to really present danger and and his car was representing and I left in the lethal weapon he would have just driven a straight through them if that was you know all that that's what his intention he would have done that but what he did he we won't and57/167
the car came to a stop and also let's not forget that there were others in the car including two women and another man so of to to say that they should be shot down one of the shots that one of the people well it isn't really strange places right on top of the clock if it is against something that is not what he could have he