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Title: The BFP Roundtable Debates Anarchism, Socialism and Libertarianism
Published: 2014-05-02
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVQa-6xqAoA
Title: The BFP Roundtable Debates Anarchism, Socialism and Libertarianism
Published: 2014-05-02
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVQa-6xqAoA
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so it's just like okay let's just have a real calm real coffee and no censorship welcome to the boiling frog post round table we've got a lively discussion planned for you today and we're glad that you're watching joining me from Japan is James Corbett who contributes to boiling frog post with his fabulous eye opener video series and of course %HESITATION operates at Corbett report dot com2/185
Sibel Edmonds the publisher of boiling frog post and of course the author of a powerful book called classified woman joins his says usual I'm Peter B. Collins in San Francisco where I operate Peter B. Collins dot com and contribute the processing distortion podcast to boiling frogs post and our special guest today is Andrew Gavin Marshall a contributor here at boiling frogs post where he does the3/185
weekly empire power in people podcast he also is the project manager of the people's book project head of the geopolitics division of the Hampton institute and is the research director of occupied dot coms global power project Andrew it's great to have you with us today great to be with you we were all struck by a recent podcast that you %HESITATION posted at boiling frogs post %HESITATION4/185
regarding your thoughts on it anarchy socialism libertarianism and I have to say that as an unknown reconstructed liberal I found it all very interesting and I have always been open to exploring well alternatives to the systems that we have and I think that there are many positive attributes love of of what is called INR Kitson but first I think we need to define what you mean5/185
by that because for many people the broad definition of anarchism is is chaos it's %HESITATION every person for it his or herself and %HESITATION I've learned from people who called themselves anarchists that %HESITATION that's not really the case so when we start there with you defining your perception of anarchism in today's terminology are well anarchism comes from the required an Archos which means to be without6/185
authority that is sort of the fundamental concept of anarchy to be without authority I it's probably the political philosophy but the most variation possible and allowed I see you have and her kiss groups and a different sort of ideologies across the spectrum now but ultimately I think that anarchy is about first of all questioning the legitimacy of all hierarchically I institutionalize structures all power structures to7/185
question the let their legitimacy and if it's not legitimate to oppose and make that's on a structure obsolete and %HESITATION Annika's principles involve %HESITATION collective organization %HESITATION horizontal organization I from the ground up not to have hierarchies not to have I taught down structures but to have bottom up collective truly democratic structures as a means of organizing society in that sense I think that anarchy is8/185
ultimately the true definition of democracy since it's from the bottom up instead of a top down imposed approach I do what we call democracy bites %HESITATION Annika's them I think and I I think fundamentally is about I not only opposing authority in authority structures by it of creating a new system I knew a social order from the bottom up which makes the prevailing wind obsolete and9/185
you can have that various entered his thoughts and also actions %HESITATION which are %HESITATION representations of anarchism so for example when workers in a factory organize and decide to run the factory themselves removing the perceived need for management that's anarchism arm whether or not the workers identified that as anarchism arm or their beliefs anarchism that is an anarchistic act in and of itself I and that's10/185
kind of a fundamental principle for %HESITATION into what's called industrial democracy so you can have political democracy where you hold elections and elect people industrial democracy I'd never made it that far for some reason on in the workplace in the economic sphere where we allowed a teary needs that we call corporations to dominate that spectrum %HESITATION well they let us eat our K. can holding elections11/185
annually but I democracy are rather anarchy but it is to be experienced and sought in all spheres of human activity in interaction also it's not simply in terms of thought but in terms of our actions that people take which I. represents anarchy or what we call anarchy and you're also correct in pointing out that it has long been associated with chaos I and disorder of one12/185
of the original philosophers of anarchism up here Prue dome I'd said that anarchy is order not chaos and I think that's correct and I believe I do believe that anarchy is order precisely because authority is chaos we live in a world dominated by authority structures no matter where or what structure you identify and we live in a world of chaos war poverty destruction violence I and13/185
%HESITATION imperialism that's not a war a world of order that's a world of structured %HESITATION and destructive chaos so anarchy is the opposite of that both in approach and object and Andrew I wanted to do a little show and tell here because recently for me a window into a contemporary anarchists is this book written by Scott crow and it depicts Sir %HESITATION recounts %HESITATION his activities14/185
in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina the flood the failure of theme of the corporate ties response to the disaster with a black water soldiers patrolling the streets and there was chaos in New Orleans and the anarchist brought their own sense of order and as you have alluded to it was a a collective approach %HESITATION they went back to Texas for a you know extra supplies %HESITATION15/185
but they operated out without a hierarchy their focus was delivering the services that the of the city the state and the federal government up failed to provide to those who were stranded %HESITATION after the levees broke and the floods %HESITATION %HESITATION just inundated the city partly and so Scott crowed to me is a very interesting is also quite articulate and I recommend to our viewers %HESITATION16/185
his book black flags and windmills but to me it really I gave me a fresh look at anarchism as an appropriate response to the failure of government and I think most people can easily identify that on the scale of New Orleans post Katrina but we're looking at in in terms of the United States a government that is failing on a daily basis and so I'm interested17/185
in alternative approaches and I think that you in in your original podcast articulated a very interesting continuum %HESITATION from socialism to libertarianism too anarchism and each has some very valuable attributes or yeah absolutely and arm the reference you made to New Orleans is not interesting I didn't actually know about that at all but it reminded me of occupy sandy following are hurting sandy in New York18/185
occupy sandy was this spontaneous collective grouping that emerged in response to the hurricane which sought to I connect people figure out what people needed in which areas to get those supplies and to get them out there and to transport all the stuff and to actually directly help people in need because the aid agencies and again fi mind other agencies were incapable I or unwilling or both19/185
doesn't matter %HESITATION of actually providing what was needed at that time and occupy sandy was so successful that arm at their debriefings of what was going on it was attended by all of the other governmental agencies because they didn't know anything that I know what was going on they probably didn't care that much but here you had a ground up %HESITATION spontaneous organization which was just20/185
facilitated by people in the community are who were interested and %HESITATION mobilized by the disaster to %HESITATION organize and facilitate what they could to help and they were very successful at anything that's just another example of that but I'm getting to your actual point of %HESITATION as sort of trace seen this I evolution I guess of thought can with socialism libertarianism I libertarian %HESITATION as a21/185
word in as a concept actually came out of anarchism I in the nineteenth century so there is a word era term which is given to enter because it's kind of synonymous with that which is libertarian socialist and it may sound like a contradiction our but that's where the term originally comes from I was only in the I guess the early to mid twentieth century that the22/185
word libertarian I became associated more with a specific economic philosophy that came out of places like that my sis institute and elsewhere I'm but I'll actually sort of deflect you a quote I have here from me count back goon in who is a major and a kiss philosopher and also a major challenger of %HESITATION %HESITATION marks in his day witches that liberty without socialism is privilege23/185
in justice socialism with that liberty is slavery and brutality I so it's about understanding that on liberty and socialism are not opposing concepts but rather interconnected and interdependent concepts for true socialism arm to emerge to be relevant I it needs libertarianism I to insure liberty four libertarianism %HESITATION to reach its potential it needs socialism I had to lay the groundwork that they have to operate I'm24/185
not one and then the other but concurrently and together that they are not mutually reinforcing concepts I and I think that's sort of %HESITATION %HESITATION I mean issue %HESITATION I presume of what I was saying pry I previously but also just in terms of %HESITATION moving forward and finding ways to build bridges between I'm activists and philosophies and people organizing today because there are so many25/185
divisions and they often become really %HESITATION extreme and arm this gets in the way of moving forward but I think that this is an area where you can actually start to build bridges and understanding between different groups look Sibel up both of you provided great examples and what those were like circumstantial examples and also things within a short period of time so EP look at what26/185
you just described and that is anarchism what kind of example %HESITATION will be able to find that would show anarchism working you know more long term situation ratted active pass repeat because I agree with that thing same thing happened in Turkey with the earthquake in nineteen ninety nine and one of the amazing thing was all even the animosity between them week Santorum's which has been you27/185
know going on for a long time disappeared so bad day date joined them relief efforts and and and and and you just saw this new credible solidarity okay and the whole floor six months later nine months later things went back to where they were before a another example would be %HESITATION occupation and or occupy Wall Street movement you know started with this rally good who he28/185
said I mean really energized and then what started taking place in long term was people started getting more fragmented and the hijacking by some of the power establishment %HESITATION NGOs started taking place are so while we can give examples in which bits of you know %HESITATION short term or situational %HESITATION as circumstantial are examples do you think of anything that would %HESITATION illustrate how we would29/185
warrant you no longer appeared of time in a larger context well we don't have very long examples to go by precisely because we don't live in an anarchistic society arm and but there are examples historically looking at such as the Spanish revolution where you did see anarchist movements develop and successfully arm handle the at maintenance of society quite efficiently I might add almond and this also30/185
took place during the early years and even pre dating the Russian Revolution arm in both cases the anarchist movements were destroyed from forces within and without I in Russia you had the Bolsheviks on who literally went out and killed a lot of the entertainers saga as well as the western funded on our groups inside Russia is seeking to establish a liberal state capitalist society they were31/185
also destroying the anarchist group beings in Spain you had our western societies the Soviet Union and all of Europe's fascists %HESITATION collectively are working and competing and %HESITATION fighting each other as well as killing our and destroying the anarchist revolution inside of Spain which did %HESITATION show significant progress of the city of Barcelona especially was run entirely by anarchist collectives and I in a very successful32/185
manner until of course Franco came around but %HESITATION then fact bet on energy attempts at long term %HESITATION much larger scale and a kiss projects have failed is not an indication that they can't succeed because after all you can make the same claim about literally anything we don't live in an actual capitalist society but you can make you it's challenging to make the claim that capitalism33/185
on as a sort of added it at space concept I is impossible because here we are because this isn't necessarily a capitalist system are the same case can be made for socialism or democracy I'd judging by what we have at present insane that democracy obviously doesn't work %HESITATION why bother trying to move towards democracy I is I think a sort of a flawed approach instead of34/185
going towards looking at what are the %HESITATION successes and failures of democracy in what is democracy fundamentally and how could you move towards that on that I think is more of a long term approach anarchism is %HESITATION like you said it you see it in his examples that are very much in the short term and oddly enough in reaction to catastrophes and I situations of great35/185
need which I think is kind of an indication in and of itself but %HESITATION there's questions that have to be asked and answered which we as a society as people have haven't spent on really any time on I such as how can we utilize technology to I make things like %HESITATION basic services and necessities are being taken care of our society should be geared towards just36/185
employment and jobs and that that is the point of life and you work and then you make money and then you die I am congratulations that's life on anarchy is them it will have to find ways to address all of these necessities food shelter on taking care of cities communities cleaning I mean what about janitorial services who does that in an acoustic society these are questions37/185
that need to be asked and answers that need to be side but the only way that we can actually figure this out is if we start having the conversation but also if we start I'm trying through trial and error that's ultimately how will figure out long term on solutions to these things I don't think there's Reid inside the anarchist community there are incredible divisions our along38/185
different philosophies and beliefs and you have people saying that you know prud'homme was right and we should only follow his ideas and others will cite other philosophers there's all this sort of incest things %HESITATION and I think irrelevant infighting I think ultimately if you really want not to figure out which one is critical right and I don't think there is one on it's just a matter39/185
of trying out new things and seeing what works what adapts and what evolves arm over the long term and that's where we can see on looking at the successes and failures of other groups other communities in the world and we can already see some of this arm in different resistance movements are around the world and even in the arm responses to catastrophe see see examples of40/185
what works why does that working at it at a situation like that and why can't we sort of replicate that in times of cortical piece in order among these are I think really important questions I don't have the answers to but arm I think that ultimately trial in areas where we'll figure that out James you want to chime in here well spell I do I I41/185
certainly appreciate the question that you raise and it's an important one but I think that the answer to it is a lot easier than a lot of people might think and I I guess the straight no B. S. answer is to say that not no one here on in this conversation no one listening to this conversation no one on the planet is going to have the42/185
answer for how to act prospectively in every possible situation they creation of totalizing ideologies is %HESITATION is I think a type of virus that has unfortunately infected are our political consciousness and and much to our detriment on it and what's at stake with the microcosmic example because it's always easier to see in the microcosm of enter poses the question who's going to clean the toilets in43/185
the anarchistic society that's a very good question but I think that the answer can be located in for example the the idea of the household there are certain households in which are you know the mother will clean the toilet to where the father will clean the toilet or the kids will clean the toilet or some combination thereof will complete clean the toilet and then there are44/185
other households where I guess they probably don't clean the toilet and die and in an anarchist society you know what all of those might be viable options when we extend that out to society and to all of the other tasks in society the point of anarchism I think and I completely agree with what Andrew was ich articulating in his podcast is that this is not an45/185
ideology it is unknown to use the phrase that to that Andrew brought up it wasn't me every once you don't have to squawk at me with your parroting the popping days of popular protest that squad guy he was the free market weren't flag he owned it Andrew himself said free market of pot of of ideas is what is needed because it is not from me it46/185
is not from you it's not for any individual out there that we're going to come up with V. answer to how to organize society it is through them peaceful voluntary interactions of tens hundreds thousands millions eventually billions of people on this planet that we will not come to not just one answer but many different answers in different contexts that will hold for different periods of times47/185
for different reasons for me the entire issue I know people want to see some sort of penis measuring contest of people battling out their political ideologies here that is not how I would freeing this debate at all that what the conversation that we're having I think that the remarkable thing exactly as I enter was saying is that there are incredible bridge building opportunities here if we48/185
understand this issue at its fundamental level and for people who were incredulous at that idea I I I think I agree with with for example I grieve Andrew on on maybe fifty to sixty percent of its political and economic thought probably eighty or ninety percent of his prescriptive ideas from what our society needs to do but one hundred percent on the substantial issue the substantial issue49/185
is not one of political ideology it is not one of economic organization it is an ethical construct nothing more nothing less and it boils down to a very simple principle the idea that I respect you and I as an individual and your right to freely and voluntarily associate with others in the way that you want and I expect the same respect in return that's it and50/185
if there is any argument against that I have yet to hear it or at least any argument that makes sense to me so that that's that's all I'm arguing is for that simple moral principle of voluntary association and upon that principle we can have erect a me edifice of any political organization any social on compact any economic system that you want and if you wanna go51/185
often builders like iced resource based economy flying Marxist robot city awesome go for it have fun if you want to make your socialist factory worker paradise go for it if you want to subject yourself to something calling itself government the prisons have authority over you and you go ahead and it's part perfectly and you were a bright just don't expect me to go along with that52/185
and will be fine there's and there's an act absolutely no debate at that point so for me that's all it boils down to is the fundamental principle of voluntary association very interesting Andrew you want to respond to that sure I mean I think you've nailed it on the head there by on the idea of Amy to re appropriate phrase of free market of ideas I think53/185
is are really tapping into the most valuable resource we have as a species which is this species armed if you compare the sheer number of people in this world which has surpassed seven billion people to the number of people in this world who dominate it to the number of institutions which I might add are hierarchically organized and structured %HESITATION which dominates the ideology and actions of54/185
on our society a look at the ways in which ideas rise through institutions to the top to become dominant ideologies this takes a great deal of time this takes years decades generations and %HESITATION these structures are so large and of course being hierarchical the function from the top down so to respond to changes and desires from the bottom up which is to say to respond to55/185
democratic our needs and desires that of the people it takes a great deal of time not for the institutional structure of society to adapt and it only does so begrudgingly %HESITATION it only does so %HESITATION with a great deal of force and pressure on and this is what we call reform and it takes forever for very little results comparatively I and I think that that's not56/185
a very efficient way to run society because while we can't have actual good things come through reform processes you know enhanced rights for different groups of people armed laws which recognize rights civil liberties it's better I mean I don't think it's legitimate to necessarily say that I'm all reform efforts are on a faulty order wrong I'd there are good things that obviously come through I but57/185
it takes so much time and at that our current trajectory as a species where we're sort of headed for the cliff like the dodo bird a dodo bird you know running as fast as we can towards extinction I don't think we have the time to wait armed for reform to catch up to the needs of the population of earth I'm not not to mention the earth